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Meet the Press - January 29, 2023

Rep. Jim Jordan (R-Ohio), Robert Gates, Yamiche Alcindor, Stephen Hayes, Claire McCaskill and Amna Nawaz

CHUCK TODD:

This Sunday: Outrage.

TYRE NICHOLS:

Mom!

CHUCK TODD:

The brutal police beating video of Tyre Nichols shocks the nation and raises more questions about policing in America.

ANTONIO ROMANUCCI:

He was a human pinata for those police officers.

ROWVAUGHN WELLS:

No mother should go through what I’m going through right now.

CHUCK TODD:

Five fired Memphis police officers have been charged with murder.

FBI DIRECTOR CHRISTOPHER WRAY:

I’m struggling to find a stronger word, but I will just tell you I was appalled.

CHUCK TODD:

Will Congress try again to push for more police reform? I’ll talk to Republican Congressman Jim Jordan of Ohio, the chairman of the Judiciary Committee. Plus, subpoena power. House Republicans create a new committee to investigate so-called “bias” in the FBI and the Justice Department.

REP. ELISE STEFANIK:

The FBI has been weaponized against President Trump and clearly has covered up for sitting President Joe Biden.

CHUCK TODD:

But Democrats warn that it's all about settling political scores.

REP. DAN GOLDMAN:

Let’s call it what it really is: the Republican committee to obstruct justice.

CHUCK TODD:

And, giving tanks. The U.S. and Germany agree to send battle tanks to Ukraine, a move many once feared would risk escalating the war with Putin.

PRES. JOE BIDEN:

It will enhance the Ukraine’s capacity to defend its territory and achieve its strategic objectives.

CHUCK TODD:

Is time running out? Our new NBC News poll reveals support for arming Ukraine is starting to fade. I’ll talk to the former defense secretary and former CIA Director Robert Gates. Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News Washington correspondent and moderator of Washington Week Yamiche Alcindor; Amna Nawaz, co-anchor of PBS NewsHour; former Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill and Stephen Hayes, editor of The Dispatch. Welcome to Sunday, it's Meet the Press.

ANNOUNCER:

From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.

CHUCK TODD:

Good Sunday morning. After the murder of George Floyd, there seemed to be a bipartisan consensus that something had to be done on the national level, but nothing happened. Now we're watching this brutal beating of Tyre Nichols in Memphis, Tennessee, and asking: How can this be happening again? And will this be the moment that sparks real action nationally? Look, it’s not a secret that Americans are losing confidence in their institutions, including the police, and their political leaders in general. In fact, our new NBC News poll that’s out this morning paints a picture of a deeply pessimistic country distrustful of government in general, with an overall outlook that is historically bleak. Asked to describe where America is headed in the next year, more than two-thirds use negative words and phrases: downhill, wrong track, disaster, hard times and uncertain. That’s both sides of the aisle, folks, this isn’t just one-sided. A full 71% of Americans say the nation is on the "wrong track.” We are in the longest sustained period of a "wrong track" number that high in the history of our poll. It’s nearly been two-and-a-half years of this sustained pessimism. That’s longer than the 2008 financial crisis. And now, the country is reeling after the release of this graphic video. We’re here to warn you again: this video is very disturbing. In an assault caught on police surveillance and body cameras, Memphis police officers punched, kicked, tased, pepper sprayed and swung a baton at 29-year-old Tyre Nichols, who was unarmed. Nichols was pulled over in a traffic stop, which the police department initially said was due to, quote, "reckless driving." But Memphis Police chief CJ Davis, who has called the killing of Nichols "heinous, reckless and inhumane," says investigators have "been unable to substantiate” that claim. Again, this video is disturbing. Here’s a portion.

[BEGIN TAPE]

OFFICER:

Get your [BLEEP] hands up.

OFFICER:

Get your [BLEEP] hands up. Hands up!

TYRE NICHOLS:

I didn't do anything.

OFFICER:

Turn your ass around.

TYRE NICHOLS:

Alright, alright, alright, alright.

OFFICER:

On the ground. On the ground!

TYRE NICHOLS:

Alright, alright, alright, alright.

TYRE NICHOLS:

Don’t do that, okay?

OFFICER:

Get on the [BLEEP] ground. Get on the ground!

OFFICER:

I’m going to tase your ass.

TYRE NICHOLS:

Alright, alright, alright, alright.

NICHOLS:

Alright, I'm on the ground. I’m on the ground.

OFFICER:

Stay on the ground, I'm going to tase you. Get on the ground!

NICHOLS:

Stop! Alright, okay, alright.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

After an officer pepper sprayed Nichols' face and used a Taser on him, even though he was not resisting, Nichols then twisted himself away from officers and started to run away. Minutes later, officers caught up with him. He was less than 100 yards from his home.

[BEGIN TAPE]

OFFICER:

Give me your hands. Give me your hands.

OFFICER:

Do you want to get sprayed again?

TYRE NICHOLS:

Mom!

OFFICER:

Watch out, watch out.

TYRE NICHOLS:

Mom! Mom!

OFFICER:

Give me your hands!

TYRE NICHOLS:

Mom! Mom!

OFFICER:

Give me your hands!

OFFICER:

Alright. Alright.

OFFICER:

Give me your [BLEEP] hands!

TYRE NICHOLS:

Alright. Alright.

OFFICER:

Give me your hands, bro!

OFFICER:

Watch out. I’ll spray your ass again.

OFFICER:

Give me your hands, bro!

TYRE NICHOLS.

Alright. Alright.

OFFICER:

Sprayed.

OFFICER:

Give me your hands, bro!

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

After the officers stopped beating Nichols, it took 28 minutes for an ambulance to take Nichols to the hospital. He would die in the hospital three days later. Nichols worked for FedEx and had a four-year-old son. Five officers have been fired and charged with second degree murder, aggravated assault, aggravated kidnapping, official misconduct and official oppression. The Justice Department is conducting a civil rights investigation into the death. Two Shelby County Sheriff's deputies have also been relieved of duty pending an internal investigation, as well as two members of the Memphis Fire department. All of them were seen in the longer version of that video. Protests erupted across the country, from Memphis to New York to Los Angeles. And in a statement late on Friday, President Biden called the killing, quote, “yet another painful reminder of the profound fear and trauma, the pain and the exhaustion that Black and Brown Americans experience every single day.”

[BEGIN TAPE]

ROWVAUGHN WELLS:

For me to find out that my son was calling my name, and I was only feets away, and did not even hear him, you have no clue how I feel right now. No clue.

PRES. JOE BIDEN:

I spoke with Tyre’s mother and expressed my condolences and told her that I was going to be making a case to the Congress, they should pass the George Floyd Act. It has a lot to say and do with the image of America. It has a lot to do with whether or not we are the country we say we are.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

And joining me now is Republican Congressman Jim Jordan of Ohio. He chairs the House Judiciary Committee. And in fact, any police reform bill, in many ways, would begin in his committee. Congressman Jordan, welcome back to Meet the Press.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Good to be with you, Chuck.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me start with what we saw. Senator Tim Scott – let me put up a quote of what he said. He said, "We've been here too many times before. We cannot continue down this path. America cannot stand silent. Let it serve as a call to action for every lawmaker in our nation at every level." What action would you like to see, Congressman?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Well, I don't know that there's any law that can stop that evil that we saw that is just, I mean, just difficult to watch. What strikes me is just the lack of respect for human life. I don't know that any law, any training, any reform is going to change, you know, that this man was handcuffed, they continued to beat him. I was actually reminded – it's hard to watch the whole thing – but as I watched it, I was reminded of when we had a hearing probably two years ago, when George Floyd's brother came and testified in front of the Judiciary Committee. And it was one of those moments where fact and truth and emotion all came together. And he said something at that hearing, it was actually during the questioning portion of the hearing, he said, "Life is precious." And it was one of those moments that grabbed everyone in that hearing, both parties. And the fact that we saw that these individuals, these five individuals, did not have any respect for life. And, again, I don't think these five guys represent the vast, vast majority of law enforcement. But I don't know that there's anything you can do to stop the kind of evil we saw in that video.

CHUCK TODD:

So it sounds like you are not for any new federal regulation?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Well, there's things we can do. I think there's all kinds of grant dollars that could go out. There's reform that can happen there. We offered amendments to a bill. Tim Scott had legislation – that wasn't what the Democrats brought forward a few years ago. So I think there's some things we can look at. But it's just a difference in, I think, philosophy. The Democrats always think that it's a new law that's going to fix something that terrible. We kind of think that that's, you know, there's --

CHUCK TODD:

No, I get the ideological --

REP. JIM JORDAN:

– no new law is going to do that.

CHUCK TODD:

– I think the Tim Scott bill had a lot of financial incentives.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Sure did.

CHUCK TODD:

And the George Floyd bill was some mandatories. So let me go through, why not a federal ban on chokeholds? That seems to be – that's agreed upon, right? You're comfortable with a full federal ban on chokeholds for police officers?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Well, I'm for the best training possible. But what I'm not for is what we saw there. I don't know that any training, any ban – there was no chokeholds used there. What they did there was just continue to beat this Mr. Nichols. And so I don't know that that's the answer. But, again, we'll look at what we think makes sense to help this, to make sure they have the proper training. But no amount of training's going to change what we saw in that video.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, I understand, I understand that. But why not set some minimum standards so that officers are held accountable immediately? In this case it was because the chief acted. The chief sort of acted unilaterally here, that we don't always see that kind of leadership. But why not enact a federal standard here? Look, most people don't want to commit murder. But we have a federal standard when it comes to murder.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

If we can incentivize certain things, I still think you want to keep this at the state and local level. This is a law enforcement issue. You start getting the federal government involved in databases and federal licensing things, that gets -- because the federal government screws it up so many times. We've had – I think one of the items in the Democrat legislation a couple years ago was some kind of federal registry. Well, then you get concerns -- is every complaint going to be there? Are they going to be just adjudicated complaints? How are we going to track this? And I know all kinds of federal databases that get it wrong. We've had members of Congress show up on the no-fly list because they were characterized in the terrorist category. Then you had, I remember, Secretary Mayorkas coming and testifying he couldn't tell us what happened to the illegal migrants who came across who were on the terrorist watch list. So there's all kinds of problems with that.

CHUCK TODD:

But we've had this issue of wandering cops, for instance, where literally you can go across state lines. You've been adjudicated as somebody who shouldn't be a cop in one jurisdiction. And you can get a job somewhere else.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

No, that's a good point because --

CHUCK TODD:

And this is why people want this database.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Yeah. That's a good point. There should be some way – I don't know if you need it to be the federal government – there should be some way if a police officer's moving from Indianapolis to Columbus, there should be some way for them to know if there have been adjudicated complaints against that guy, so you know what you're getting. Because I think there was one of these --

CHUCK TODD:

Right, so don’t you have to do this on the federal level?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

I would prefer it much be done, if we can incentivize, I'd much prefer it be done at the state and local level.

CHUCK TODD:

I hear you but I literally did a special about a wandering cop who was adjudicated --

REP. JIM JORDAN:

I saw some of that.

CHUCK TODD:

– yeah, Delaware versus Maryland. That's across state lines.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

I saw some of that.

CHUCK TODD:

So you see what I mean.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Yes.

CHUCK TODD:

Once you have across state line issues, it has to be adjudicated at the federal level.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Well, maybe there's some kind of federal law we can look at that requires that to happen, but it's done at the local level. So if a cop's coming from one jurisdiction to another, they have to let you know what happened in the previous jurisdiction. The other thing that needs to, frankly, happen is we're not getting enough good people applying because of the disparagement on police officers. I talk with police officers all the time. I remember flying through the Chicago airport, the Phoenix airport and talking with officers there. Right now, they don't get enough people applying, taking the test to enter the academy to be an officer because there's been this “defund the police concept” out there. There's been this attack on law enforcement. And you're not getting the best of the best. In fact, they may have 100 openings and get ten people to apply where just ten, 20 years ago, you’d have –

CHUCK TODD:

Aren't you making the case for federal standards then?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

No I'm making, I’m making the case –

CHUCK TODD:

I say this because if you make a case for having, of having strong standards --

REP. JIM JORDAN:

I’m making the case –

CHUCK TODD:

– that's uniform across the board, it gives people comfort.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

I'm making the case that we shouldn't have this whole attitude about “defund the police” and disparaging police because the vast, vast majority of police officers aren't doing what we saw in that video.

CHUCK TODD:

No, I get you. But I don't think anybody in Washington is seriously advocating defunding the police. I get that there are people arguing that. I think, in here --

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Well, there were --

CHUCK TODD:

I understand that. But in the --

REP. JIM JORDAN:

There were a couple years ago, Chuck.

CHUCK TODD:

That's not what the George Floyd bill is that we’re talking about.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

A number of my colleagues were, on the other side of the aisle were talking about defunding the police. I got a list of 20 jurisdictions that defunded the police to the tune of over $1 billion total. That's a problem when you're trying to attract the best to protect our communications.

CHUCK TODD:

I understand that. But that's not been the federal debate. That’s not been the federal debate.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

It's been a big debate across the country for the last several years.

CHUCK TODD:

But let me ask you this. I know you've got other investigations you want to do. Should this now be at the top of your list? Should police reform be among the top things the Judiciary Committee works on?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Well, this was certainly, in many ways, abuse of – I mean, weaponization of government, an abuse of the state and authority against the people that they're actually supposed to serve. But we've got a number of things we're going to look at in the Judiciary Committee and on the Select Committee as well.

CHUCK TODD:

Explain the difference between the Select Committee, which you're chair of that is focused on what you guys are calling the weaponization of the federal government and law enforcement communities, and the Judiciary Committee? You're also chair of that.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Yeah.

CHUCK TODD:

What's the distinction here? Why are you chair of both?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Well, that's what the leader wanted. That's what Speaker McCarthy wanted. And the Select Committee has some non-Judiciary Committee members on it, members from the Intelligence Committee, the Energy and Commerce Committee and Homeland Security are a part of that committee. The weaponization is – we have that because of what we've seen in various agencies over the last couple years. I mean, I'll just take the FBI, for example. The FBI spied on the president's campaign, altered evidence in front of the FISA Court, paid a confidential human source even after they knew that confidential human source had lied to them. The FBI has targeted parents. The FBI has done a number of things. I mean, the FBI raided the home of a former president 91 days before an election, took the phone of a sitting member of Congress, and on and on we can go. And then just last week, we learned that a former FBI agent, special agent in charge of counterintelligence in the New York division was taking money from a Russian. And this wasn’t just – I mean, this was the special agent in charge of counterintelligence in New York, taking money from Oleg Derpiaska – not just any, not just any Russian, the Russian.

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah, you know who--

REP. JIM JORDAN:

And he was also--

CHUCK TODD:

You know who his American advisor was, Oleg Deripaska? The former campaign manager to Donald Trump's campaign --

REP. JIM JORDAN:

I understand.

CHUCK TODD:

– Paul Manafort.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

I understand.

CHUCK TODD:

I mean, this so I, you know, does this not also--

REP. JIM JORDAN:

But also Oleg --

CHUCK TODD:

– raise some troubling signs here?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

It sure does.

CHUCK TODD:

Paul Manafort was the go-between for Oleg Deripaska. He gave him polling information on the campaign.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

He also paid – Oleg Deripaska also paid Christopher Steele who was the key guy on the whole Steele Dossier that launched the Trump/Russia investigation. Guess who one of the people who was involved in launching that? Mr. McGonigal, the special agent at the FBI. So that's why we're looking at this attack of, this weaponization of government against the –

CHUCK TODD:

So are you going to look at the role Paul Manafort played with Oleg Deripaska then?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

To the extent that may come in. But we're focused on the number of things we've seen here. And I haven't even got to the Department of Homeland Security--

CHUCK TODD:

But let me, I want to--

REP. JIM JORDAN:

– that tried to set up the misinformation governance board.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, I want to unpack a little bit. You talk about the FBI abusing powers when it comes to parents and school board. School board members were getting death threats. These weren't idle things. These weren't parents just yelling and screaming. These were actual --

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Do you know how many parents –

CHUCK TODD:

– death threats to elected officials. And the FBI got a tip. Should they not look into a death threat when an elected official gets a death threat?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

School board writes a letter on September 29th, five days later, the Attorney General of the United States issues a memorandum to 101 U.S. attorneys offices around the country saying, "Set up this line that they can report on." Sixteen days later, Chuck, the FBI sends out an email to agents all across the country saying, "Put this designation on parents. Report it on the snitch line that the attorney general set up." So all that happens. Think about it, September 29th, October 4th, October 20th. That all happens in 22 days. When have you ever seen the federal government move that fast?

CHUCK TODD:

Do you know what--

REP. JIM JORDAN:

– Twenty-five parents, whistleblowers --

CHUCK TODD:

There were actual death threats. Congressman, literally--

REP. JIM JORDAN:

I understand.

CHUCK TODD:

– this is --

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Chuck, but let me just finish this. Twenty-five parents get reported on that snitch line. They all get investigated. FBI shows up to their door and guess how many have been charged. How many have been charged? Zero.

CHUCK TODD:

Then the FBI did its job.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Zero.

CHUCK TODD:

Did the FBI not do its job?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

You don't get --

CHUCK TODD:

If they were trumping something up, wouldn't they be arresting someone?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

One of the people charged –

CHUCK TODD:

I mean, you're trying to create a, you’re trying to create a controversy –

REP. JIM JORDAN:

No.

CHUCK TODD:

–out of the FBI following up on a tip. I mean, literally –

REP. JIM JORDAN:

One of the, one of the –

CHUCK TODD:

– here's a mom, this is one Loudoun County, Virginia school board member. "If she doesn't quit or resign before the end of the year, we will kill her. But first, we will kill you." These are among the comments. In Dublin, Ohio, school board member, "You have become our enemies. You will be removed one way or the other." Shouldn't the FBI investigate these then?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

One of the people they went to investigate was a mom. And they said, "Because she's in the group Moms for Liberty and because they have firearms at her house, they go investigate her." You get investigated in America for that, they show up at your house. Now you don't think that has a chilling impact on other parents? So there's a school board meeting tonight. Mr. Jones is thinking about going and talking at the school board meeting and then he says, "You know what, maybe I won't go. Maybe I won't speak out because I know Mrs. Smith had a visit from the FBI last week." The chilling impact on the First Amendment free speech is what we care about. This committee is about protecting the Constitution, in particular, the First Amendment.

CHUCK TODD:

You know, many of the things you want to investigate, when I look at them in isolation, I think they're fair targets. I think they're fair things for you to be questioning. The problem that when you look at it is you want to talk about the weaponization of the Justice Department. You don't want to look at anything that happened during the Trump years. He subpoenaed data on Congressman Adam Schiff and Eric Swalwell. That is known. He secretly obtained reporters’ phone records using the Justice Department. He pressured the Justice Department, Donald Trump did, to go easy on Michael Flynn and Roger Stone. The Justice Department was pressured by Mark Meadows who investigated this election fraud. He even tried to change the leadership at the Justice Department. My point is –

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Chuck, we want to protect the First Amendment.

CHUCK TODD:

– if you are, if you are concerned about the weaponization of the Justice Department in the Biden years, why not investigate the Trump years?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

We're going to look at threats to the First Amendment. We're going to look at this – what Elon Musk, through the Twitter files, has displayed is unbelievable. The idea that the FBI was paying Twitter $3.4 million to help them suppress information –

CHUCK TODD:

No, that's not how it works.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

– to keep information from the American –

CHUCK TODD:

They had to reimburse Twitter to comply with subpoenas.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Ok, do you think it was okay –

CHUCK TODD:

That's a federal law. That's a law Congress passed.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Do you think it's okay for the FBI to be meeting every week and suppressing information about a conservative -– suppressing the Hunter Biden story, which we know is true? Do you think that's all right? I think most Americans say, "No, that's probably information we –"

CHUCK TODD:

I understand that –

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Here's what I would like --

CHUCK TODD:

– but that's a private organization that made this decision.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

With pressure from the government. That's the point. I can understand a private organization can do it. I don't think it's right. But there shouldn't be pressure from the government. When is the FBI just going to stay out of the election process? Just let we the people to decide. Let the American people decide. In 2016, they spied on Trump's campaign. 2018, it was the Mueller investigation. 2020, they helped suppress the Hunter Biden story. 2022, they raid the home of a former president 91 days before an election. Maybe just let the –

CHUCK TODD:

Wait a minute.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

– American people decide.

CHUCK TODD:

You keep talking about –

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Maybe just stay out.

CHUCK TODD:

You keep talking about this raid on Donald Trump. The amount of time – there was nine months between the initial action that the Archives made for requests of documents before they even turned it over to the Justice Department. The subpoena was issued 60 days before they actually executed the subpoena. And more importantly, the only time the public found out about it is because Donald Trump told the public about it. This was not some sort of – you paint it as a picture of the FBI did this, this, and this within hours of each other when it was actually a year and a half of Donald Trump not –

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Didn't do the –

CHUCK TODD:

– complying with any of the requests from National Archives. A year and a half. This is not some sort of proof that somehow that they've weaponized and playing politics over here.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

They raided, they raided Trump's home. They haven't raided Biden's home.

CHUCK TODD:

Because Biden didn't defy a subpoena, Congressman. He defied a subpoena. By the way, he had 60 days to comply –

REP. JIM JORDAN:

They raided Trump.

CHUCK TODD:

– with the subpoena before they actually executed the search warrant.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

President Trump had documents locked in a room with Secret Service protecting them. President Biden had documents in his garage and in a think tank that was funded by the Chinese. I think there's a difference. President Trump was the only guy who was actually president.

CHUCK TODD:

You talk about that you're worried about the Chinese and Hunter Biden.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

No, I'm just saying, I think there’s a difference.

CHUCK TODD:

Are you worried about the Chinese and Donald Trump?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

They took pictures, they took pictures of –

CHUCK TODD:

Are you at all worried about that?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

No.

CHUCK TODD:

There–

REP. JIM JORDAN:

I'm not. But they took pictures of the documents at Trump's house. They took no pictures of documents – in fact, it's not just me who would like to know what went on here. Senator Warner said it last week. He would like to get a briefing. He wants to see the documents. And guess what?

CHUCK TODD:

There's no doubt. Congressman, the issue –

REP. JIM JORDAN:

The FBI say, "No," but they took pictures –

CHUCK TODD:

But Congressman, the issue is not whether –

REP. JIM JORDAN:

– of the folders in Trump's home.

CHUCK TODD:

The issue is not whether, what Joe Biden did, is it of concern?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

No, the issue is equal treatment under the law.

CHUCK TODD:

The issue is why is it –

REP. JIM JORDAN:

That's the issue.

CHUCK TODD:

No, the issue –

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Equal treatment under the law.

CHUCK TODD:

You do not seem to ever see the same conspiratorial problems when it's a Republican.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Those were all investigated for four years and they continue to do it.

CHUCK TODD:

By the way, their Durham Investigation investigated everything you're trying to investigate and came up with nothing. Do you not trust Bill Barr and Mr. Durham?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

The Mueller Investigation that we had two and a half years of this, and they were going to find Russian collusion. And guess what, they can't. Even though Adam Schiff told us, Adam Schiff told us that –

CHUCK TODD:

I understand, but the Durham Investigation did not come up with any–they investigated all these concerns that you had about the FBI, about made-up snitches. All these things. They didn't find anything. Why is it that you want to reinvestigate it?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

They didn't find anything? They found that Kevin Clinesmith altered documents and he pled guilty to it. That's finding something. When you've got someone at the FBI altering documents in front of the FISA Court, that's not finding anything? That's pretty–

CHUCK TODD:

That is all –

REP. JIM JORDAN:

–important, Chuck. And that's what we're look–

CHUCK TODD:

They did not find what you are claiming that is out there.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Well, they're –

CHUCK TODD:

Why couldn't Durham find it?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

The Durham investigation's not done. The Mueller Investigation is done and what did he conclude? No collusion, no conspiracy, no coordination. And we spent – we had 19 lawyers, 30 agents, $40 million spent on that and it consumed the country for two and a half years and there was nothing there.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me ask you about subpoena compliance. You didn't comply with the subpoena from Congress. Why should you expect the Biden White House to comply with your subpoena?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Well, first of all, I never told the January 6th Committee that I wouldn't come testify. What I raised is concerns. They first asked me, I sent them a letter back. I never said no. They never responded to the letter. Next thing I know, they issue me a subpoena. I sent another letter back to them. I never said I wouldn't comply. But I was very reluctant to deal with these guys because we caught them lying umpteen times. Let me just give you one thing they did to me – they played a video clip when I was doing an interview between Election Day and Inauguration Day, they played a video clip where I said, "January 6th is the ultimate date of significance in the presidential contest," insinuating one thing. What they left off of that clip is what I said, the front end of it. They cut the clip. What I said is, "The late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said, 'January 6th is the ultimate date of significance in the presidential contest.'" When you catch a group lying as many times as we did, and we weren't even allowed to be a part of it, so I –

CHUCK TODD:

How about telling us what you talked with Donald Trump with on January 6th?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

I’d be happy to talk to you about the concerns I had.

CHUCK TODD:

No, no, no, but what were your conversations with --

REP. JIM JORDAN:

I don't divulge conversations with my colleagues or with the president of the United States. I mean, I talk with him all the time. I talk to my colleagues all the time. But I don't divulge those conversations.

CHUCK TODD:

Has the current special counsel that is looking into January 6th, have they subpoenaed you for anything?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

No.

CHUCK TODD:

Have they made any contact? If they do, will you comply?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Of course.

CHUCK TODD:

When should we expect the first hearing?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Our first hearing of the Judiciary Committee is going to be Tuesday or Wednesday depending on what the minority leader does with – there's a rule that they have to deal with, when we get their members and all. But we are planning on the first hearing in the full committee being on the border situation.

CHUCK TODD:

Do you support Kevin McCarthy throughout the entire Congress?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Kevin McCarthy –

REP. JIM JORDAN:

– has done a great job. And I supported him for speaker. I think he's going to be a great speaker.

CHUCK TODD:

And you will support his speakership all the way through?

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Yeah, of course. I mean, he's the speaker of the House. I think we are going to see our team come together. And Kevin has kept our team together better than any leader we've had.

CHUCK TODD:

Obviously, we had a lot we could have gotten to, we didn't get to. But I hope you will come back.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

I will.

CHUCK TODD:

Congressman Jim Jordan, the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, thanks for coming on –

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Yeah, thank you.

CHUCK TODD:

– and sharing your views with us. When we come back, will arming Ukraine with western tanks mark a turning point in the conflict? Former Defense Secretary Robert Gates joins me next.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. This week, President Biden announced that the United States will send 31 Abrams tanks to Ukraine. It's a move the Pentagon had resisted for months, saying they would be simply too difficult to operate and maintain for the Ukrainian military. But the announcement followed pressure by U.S. allies, particularly Germany, which refused to send their tanks unless the U.S. gave them cover and did the same. What's interesting is in our new NBC news poll, 50% of Americans disapprove of President Biden's handling of the Ukraine war right now.

Just 49% support providing Ukraine more weapons and funding going forward. These are numbers which suggest Biden may have a timeline when it comes to political support for U.S. involvement. And it's not just a partisan divide. There's a generational one here. Americans who lived through the Cold War, have a memory of the Berlin Wall, are more likely to support funding. If you don't have a memory of it, you're less likely to support it. Just hours after the U.S. and European allies announced the new tanks, Russia unleashed air strikes targeting Ukraine's power grid, killing 11 people in those attacks across the country. Ukraine's President Zelenskyy called on allies to toughen sanctions, and Ukrainian officials have now asked for F-16 fighter jets. So how does this end? Joining me now is former defense secretary and head of the CIA, Robert Gates. He has served under eight U.S. presidents of both parties. Secretary Gates, always good to see you.

ROBERT GATES:

Thank you.

CHUCK TODD:

We will lower the temperature here a little bit. I want to start with something you wrote with Secretary Condoleezza Rice about two weeks ago about the war right now. "We are convinced that Putin believes time is on his side. That he can wear down the Ukrainians and that the U.S. and European unity and support for Ukraine will eventually erode and fracture. To be sure, the Russian economy and people will suffer. The work continues, but Russians have endured far worse." Well, you just saw what I was leading in with. We have– public support is there, but it's fading. It looked like this week NATO's support is there, but it could fracture. How much time does the allies, does the West and Ukraine have here?

ROBERT GATES:

I think we still have quite a bit of time, Chuck. I think there's still broad bipartisan support in the Congress for helping Ukraine. You know, when it comes to public opinion and so on, this is basically the responsibility of the president to educate people about why this is necessary. Why? Why must we confront Putin in Ukraine so we don't end up confronting him somewhere where our own forces are directly involved?

CHUCK TODD:

You think, you think he's not done that? I mean, I feel like he's done that. I don't know if the public's listening. I mean, part of me wonders, does the memory of Afghanistan and Iraq cloud the trust that the American public may or may not have with these things?

ROBERT GATES:

Well, it's one of those messages that has to be repeated over, and over, and over again. You can't make one speech or give a press conference or something like that. You just–you have to keep pounding away. But, you also–I think it's also incumbent on the members of Congress who are supportive of this, when they go back into their districts, to help the president in terms of helping people understand why we need to help Ukraine. And I think the alliance is holding together really well. I think there’s–I mean, if you had said a year ago that Europe will go from more than 40% dependency on Russia for oil and gas and they're now, less than a year later, 0-15% dependent, that's extraordinary.

CHUCK TODD:

I was just going to say, you know, look, our current politics make it impossible for anybody to give credit to the other side anymore. But this has been, so far, one of the few times it seems like where this policy of essentially, "Let's arm somebody else," where it's working without putting our own boots on the ground and it seems to be working. What's the pitfall here where it could suddenly stop working?

ROBERT GATES:

Well, I think if we falter or if our continuing support were to begin to flag, if the Europeans were to begin to fray. But I don't really see that happening right now. I think the Europeans are being very tough. And I think that, as I said, I think there's a lot of bipartisan support.

CHUCK TODD:

Russia was your portfolio back in the day at the CIA and then some. What you know about Putin, what – what do you think the real red line is with him? He has had a lot of bluster. And so far, we've crossed all these supposed red lines that he was drawing about us supporting Ukraine this or that, NATO doing this or that. None of it has come. He's had a lot of bluster but he's not – is there any red line that he's serious about that we should be concerned about?

ROBERT GATES:

I think that – I think potentially Crimea could be, because their big naval base in Crimea basically gives them control of the Black Sea. So I think it has strategic – strategic importance. But Putin, Putin believes it's his destiny to recreate the Russian empire. As my old mentor, Zbig Brzezinski, used to say, "Without Ukraine there can be no Russian empire." So he is obsessed with retaking Ukraine. He will hang in there. I think that he is – he does believe that time is on his side. That support in the U.S., support in Europe, and so on will fray. And he's doing what Russian armies have always done, and that is sending large numbers of relatively poorly equipped, poorly trained conscripts to the front lines in the belief that mass will overcome.

CHUCK TODD:

Is there anything you would've advised President Biden to do differently in this case?

ROBERT GATES:

I think – I think the only thing I would've said is that a lot of this could've been done sooner. And, you know, they're talking about it potentially being six months, a year, or more before the Abrams tanks get there. I think the key thing about the Abrams tank decision was that it unlocked Germans --

CHUCK TODD:

That was the real reason.

ROBERT GATES:

– being able to provide. Totally.

CHUCK TODD:

I mean, the Abrams tanks are probably not going to make that much of a difference when we're talking 37 versus how many Leopard tanks that we want to get over there now.

ROBERT GATES:

And – and we have our allies, Poland, Germany, and others, have hundreds of these Leopard tanks, which are a very good tank.

CHUCK TODD:

You have a legacy, I think, in Washington of sort of being a guy that sort of fixes sort of dumb problems. Meaning like stuff you're like, "Why isn't this fixed?"

ROBERT GATES:

It's a target-rich environment.

CHUCK TODD:

No, it is. So how would you – this classified document situation that our politics finds itself in, is this something that the bureaucracy should fix? Or is there something more nefarious?

ROBERT GATES:

Well, I think – I think it's about people being more responsible. I think there's an element of carelessness. In some cases there may be intent to take the documents. I think maybe we ought to look at the way transitions take place, so that there's a more orderly process for these classified documents.

CHUCK TODD:

The Pentagon is very orderly. It's my understanding the Pentagon has it pretty orderly when it comes to classified documents.

ROBERT GATES:

You basically don't take anything.

CHUCK TODD:

Right. Like, that's the point, right? Is that really what we ought to clamp down on here?

ROBERT GATES:

Well, I think certainly in terms of – of what people have in their own residences and so on, yes.

CHUCK TODD:

Very quickly, you've spent a lot of time trying to fix the NCAA, speaking of problem organizations. Does Congress need to intervene on college sports?

ROBERT GATES:

I'm always hesitant to get Congress involved in a problem, because you usually end up with a solution you don't like. But the problem that the conferences, the athletic conferences, are facing now, they're all multi-state conferences. And every state is passing a different law with different rules. And so there's no consistency for any of the conferences. And so I think there is a need for a federal law that standardizes this, so it's a level playing field.

CHUCK TODD:

The issue of multi-state problems has come up in two different interviews today on two different topics. Secretary Gates, it's always good to see you. Thanks for coming in. Up next, President Biden said he was outraged and deeply pained after watching the police beating of Tyre Nichols. So will Washington use this moment as a call to action? Our panel is next.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back, panel is here. NBC News Washington correspondent Yamiche Alcindor. She's also moderator of Washington Week. Amna Nawaz is the co-anchor of NewsHour on PBS; Stephen Hayes, editor of The Dispatch, and former Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill. Welcome to all of you. I'm going to start with the lawmaker, because you've been there when they've been trying to do police reform a few times now. The most recent time, I think it didn't happen – stuck on qualified immunity. Should we have any hope that this time is different?

CLAIRE McCASKILL:

I'm always optimistic. And I do think this is brutal. And people who think that body cams on police officers are not doing what they should, I get that. This young man died. But we now know exactly what happened. So, it does make a difference. So we are, we are to the point that if you do this, a camera is going to catch it. And I've got to applaud Memphis and that police chief – how quickly they brought this out to the public and how quickly they charged him with murder.

CHUCK TODD:

You know, Yamiche, I'm going to play something that the chief said about why she was so quick and forthcoming. Here's, here’s what she said to Tom Llamas:

[BEGIN TAPE]

MEMPHIS POLICE CHIEF CERELYN DAVIS:

What I wanted to deliver for this family at least was that first step of justice for them, to quickly deal with these officers within the scope of my power and to help facilitate this movement to the D.A.'s office as well. It was obvious to me that what I saw was beyond the scope of what is condoned in this police department and any department I have ever worked in before.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

Yamiche, a different police chief might have gone to internal affairs. A different police chief might have waited a longer period of time before this got -- she, this was a case where her leadership mattered here in how this was handled. She didn't follow a new protocol, she created her own.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR:

She did, she did make sure to try to deliver and to try to act very quickly. The issue is that a different police chief can do something different today – that if there's a Tyre Nichols today, if there's a RowVaughn Wells' son today who, for 67 minutes, is beaten and dragged, that a different police chief can do that because we don't have a federal database. And Jim Jordan says that he sees that this video that's "evil," he called it, as part of the weaponization of the government, which is, when the police kill you it is the government killing you, but he says that he doesn't know what law would change that. And there are so many civil rights leaders that I've talked to, families that I've talked to, who would vehemently disagree. Because, again, we don't know how many Tyre Nichols are there because we don't have that. Also, I just want to say this was such a horrific and terrible video. It is so, it’s so problematic that we see these officers tying their shoes, not rendering medical aid. It seems to me that this is ordinary. It is terrible, but it's also very familiar. So to me, I'm struggling to cover this because I really do see this and think to myself, "How many other people have been in this situation?" And we have video. It doesn't mean that they're going to get justice. And by the way, justice is Tyre Nichols being here for his four-year-old child and seeing him grow up. But to see this video and say video is changing things – Rodney King was on video. Eric Garner was on video. I've talked to all of those families. They don't believe just seeing this is enough. You have to actually have change. And it has to be that this doesn't happen again.

CHUCK TODD:

That's what this video situation, Amna, it does feel like without the video, there wouldn't have been any justice.

AMNA NAWAZ:

Sure.

CHUCK TODD:

We're getting it too late. But she brings up a point, it was interesting to hear the congressman agree that, yeah, the interstate, the wandering cop issue. I guess we have to – and I understand he's got an ideological point of view about not doing that. But he also admitted the flaw, I think.

AMNA NAWAZ:

Sure. And look, you can pick apart any single factor in all – the wandering cop issue, you know, body cameras, banning chokeholds, all of this stuff. These are all little pieces of what's clearly a larger problem. And I think when we treat these incidents like isolated incidents, we fail to see the forest for the trees, which is to say, there's a larger problem here. We have all been having this conversation. Certainly many people for generations, but really as a nation for the last three years, since the killing of George Floyd. What has changed since then? 2022 we actually had the highest number of police killings on record, nearly 1,200. That was two years after the killing of George.

CHUCK TODD:

These are incomplete records, too, by the way.

AMNA NAWAZ:

And they're incomplete. Correct.

CHUCK TODD:

Since we don't have --

AMNA NAWAZ:

So you can look at the combination, the unique combination of factors on the ground in Memphis. Memphis, where they did have a number of reforms after the killing of George Floyd as well. But you needed multiple body-camera angles and security camera. You needed a chief who was willing to act. You needed labor union laws on the ground that allowed for a quick investigation in a way a lot of other cities wouldn't. All of this had to come together for there to be swift justice. That's not the case in most places in this country.

CHUCK TODD:

Steve, how would we break through the ideological belief from some that Congressman Jordan expressed, which is no, when the federal government gets involved, you won't like it?

STEPHEN HAYES:

Well, look, I think he made a valid point at the beginning of his answer to you, which is to say sometimes it's not possible to pass laws to solve problems like this. I mean, I take your point. I mean, I think one time seeing something like this is far too many. I don't think this has become ordinary. And I think one of the things that you can take some comfort from, as horrific as this has been, is that there has been this universal condemnation of what happened. I mean, the Fraternal Order of the Police put out a statement condemning this. You’ve had Republican, conservative Republican Jim Jordan putting out a statement. Nobody believes that this is acceptable. And I do think that, to the senator's point, the fact that it was captured on video allowed the police chief to take these steps as quickly as it has. I think Yamiche is right. We've seen this stuff on video before, and it hasn't led to quick solutions. But the fact that this led to the kind of immediate, I think, swift action is a step in the right direction.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR:

I just want to add, though, that I think when we talk about the fact that we see this, and there's talk about this, and there are statements released, Black families are waking up this morning traumatized and are worried about sending their children out in the street. Black men are driving cars and hoping they don't get pulled over. People that are pregnant with Black boys are worried right now that they could ever see their child that they've made for nine months be killed in a matter of minutes because of this. I don't know that people see this, the people that are most impacted by this, which I will say, frankly, are Black people, are looking at this and saying that this is enough. That seeing this on camera is enough. And I think for me, when I cover this stuff and I cover all of this death, I think we have to have this conversation about the fact that also the officers are Black. And that's not surprising. And I think maybe it's not ordinary. Not every single officer is doing this. But I think it is ordinary enough that African Americans are scared. And that this happens far too often, and we just don't know how often this is happening. So, I take the – I think that's the, that’s the sort of issue that I take with this and the conversation.

CHUCK TODD:

All right, I'm going to pause the conversation here. We're going to come back. We're going to get into a little more raw politics after the break. But first – it's not the best of news that I'm going to show you here – mass shootings in America. Guess what, we've had more of them already in 2023 than there are days of the year that we've had. I'm going to show you how the numbers have been climbing each year.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back, Data Download time. It's a grim one, I'm warning you. America woke up last Sunday to news of a mass shooting in Monterey Park, California. Killed 11 people. In the weeks since, there have actually been 11 more mass shootings across the country. And the data doesn't show any signs of a coming slow down or any signs of likely action. And by the way, the definition of mass shooting that we're using is when four or more people are killed or wounded in one incident. So 29 days of the year, 44 mass shootings, and it's already accounted for 79 people killed. Again, we're just on our 29th day of this year. And if you look, this is a trend that has been sadly growing. The last four years we have averaged more mass shootings than days of the year. It is obviously a graphic that keeps ticking up. So if you're wondering, Washington must be ready to do something about it, right? Well, guess what? The voters don't necessarily say it's a priority. This is before the midterms. Most important issue deciding your vote? Look where guns is, just 3%. Literally, almost last on, last on the list that we included here. So that's one reason why you don't see any signs. Support for stricter gun control is a majority, but it's not a super majority, and you know it takes a super majority to get anything done in Washington. We've had various upticks, right after Sandy Hook, as high as 58%. Currently at the end of calendar year 2022, 57%, according to Gallup, supported stricter gun laws. We do see spikes in this. After Parkland, that number was as high as 67%. After Uvalde, the number got up to 66%. But, normally if something doesn't happen right after one of those incidents, Washington doesn't pay any more of attention. This endless cycle of carnage and inaction, it's been repeated for decades. But the conversation has changed barely a blip. Back in 1968, Democratic Senator Joseph Tydings appeared on this program, and he called for Congress to take up gun reform. He did so just a few days after his close friend, Bobby Kennedy, was shot and killed.

[BEGIN TAPE]

CARL STERN:

Additional gun control measures reaching to long guns are to be introduced in the Congress this week. But how could any of these proposed gun limits have helped to avoid the shooting of Senator Kennedy?

SEN. JOSEPH TYDINGS:

Well, the specific legislation, which would be a mail order ban on long guns, which the president has proposed, which we tried to amend to Title IV in the Senate, wouldn't go far enough, in my judgment. I think that we need a responsible, sane gun policy in this country, which would require the registration of all guns, just as automobiles, and which would require a license to purchase a gun, preferably issued by your local law enforcement officer. It's just tragic that in all of the western civilization, the United States is the one country with an insane gun policy.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

When we come back, Donald Trump hits the campaign trail for the first time in his 2024 campaign.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back, panel is here. We did have a new NBC News poll. I told you about the pessimism. We asked about the classified documents, Claire McCaskill, and what's interesting here is there was almost no distinction between Americans' concerns about Biden and the classified document situation and Trump. And what is oddly heartening here, I told this to Steve, I said, “I guess this is what qualifies as good news in our poll.” Partisans didn't act like partisans. Partisans -- Democrats were concerned about, a majority were concerned about Biden, and a majority of Republicans were concerned about what Trump did. But this does seem to muddy – the voters see wrongdoing everywhere. What say you?

CLAIRE McCASKILL:

Well, first of all, I can't tell you how many times I have given up my watch, given up my phone, gone in the SCIF, looked at classified documents, and read things that were in the paper three days ago. There is an over-classification problem, and I was surprised Secretary Gates didn't mention it. And there's also a problem about declassifying. For example, let's say, for example, one of the classified documents that might've been at Pence's house was his schedule on an overseas trip. That's classified because you don't want everybody to know where you're going before you go. But after the trip's over, that should not be classified anymore. So until the American people know what was in these documents, they have no way of telling whether this is serious or not serious. Although I did think your point was important. One, all the people who found these documents, that were sloppy and handled carelessly, they all said, "Please take them. We found them. We want you to have them." Except one. And he did everything he could to lie and obfuscate about the fact that he took them intentionally and kept them intentionally.

CHUCK TODD:

Steve, all of this classified documents, does it -- politics is not supposed to enter into the Justice Department's thinking. But it does seem to be it’s harder to make a case against Trump.

STEPHEN HAYES:

Yeah. I mean, just in terms of public perception. I think they have to be realistic about this. I mean, what -- the distinctions that you made I think in your interview with Jim Jordan were appropriate. I mean, we know what Donald Trump did, and he defied these subpoenas. He defied requests to return the documents. But in terms of public perception, it will matter. And Republicans will say, I think, somewhat justifiably, if you go back and you look at Hillary Clinton and some of these previous episodes, Republicans are prosecuted and Democrats aren't. That makes a huge perception problem, I think, for the Justice Department.

CHUCK TODD:

Yamiche?

YAMICHE ALCINDOR:

It's, it’s interesting because I remember the Meet the Press headline from this week that said the Pence documents were good for Biden and great for Trump. I thought it was brilliant because what you see is a muddying of the waters. It's hard for Americans to see sort of classified documents floating out there and think, "Well, maybe the issue is not just the individuals, but the issue is how we handle classified documents." There are some, of course, the issue of over-classification. But I think the big question that, when I talk to people about this is: How are we actually handling classified documents? Who's in charge of tracking them?

CHUCK TODD:

You know, Amna, the bigger issue I felt like in our poll, if you were the Biden White House, though, is just you don't ever want to be sort of on the same level as Trump. You don't ever want that, that feeling. And this poll, for whatever it is, on a lot of things we tested some qualities. I mean, he has seen -- the public has lost confidence in the president's ability to handle a crisis, to be competent, whether he's got the physical and mental health, all of this stuff has deteriorated. Now, some of this may be this is the world we live in. But this is not a good place to start.

AMNA NAWAZ:

I think it's also important to point out, we’re asking -- you're asking in the poll about one person at this moment in time, relatively in a vacuum. We're not comparing to other people, right? And Americans are in a pretty pessimistic point of view. And I think it's fair. Coming off the last three years of what this country has been through, where the economy is right now, gas prices are down, egg prices are up. You know, there's probably another interest rate hike coming. I think Americans are feeling very pessimistic about the direction this country is going in. But when you look on balance, the president's numbers have remained largely steady over the last year.

CHUCK TODD:

They kind of stagnate – over the last year, they haven't really budged.

AMNA NAWAZ:

Right, his numbers, I believe, on things like foreign policy, his handling of overseas issues, have actually ticked up a little bit, when it comes to one of the biggest crises we're facing as a planet right now. But also when you look at who people want in charge, President Biden and Democrats in Congress still have a little bit of an edge.

CHUCK TODD:

All right, who's got the edge today in Kansas City?

CLAIRE McCASKILL:

Oh, I think that's pretty obvious.

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah?

CLAIRE McCASKILL:

I think that, well, of course we are the underdog, Chuck. Remember, they're coming to Burrowhead to play.

CHUCK TODD:

You said it.

CLAIRE McCASKILL:

Yes.

CHUCK TODD:

She said it.

CLAIRE McCASKILL:

Go Chiefs.

CHUCK TODD:

A Chiefs fan said it.

CLAIRE McCASKILL:

Go Chiefs.

CHUCK TODD:

We'll be watching.

CLAIRE McCASKILL:

Chiefs by three.

CHUCK TODD:

It's good to see you. She was here last year for the same match-up and was that confident. Before we go, sign up for our free daily newsletter, First Read. You'll get the best analysis, polling and political news every morning. Wisdom before it's conventional. Scan the QR code now. That's all we have for today. Thanks for watching. We're back next week. We'll see what the Super Bowl is. Because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.